Dammit, Joel!

[Robyn]

So there's a new interview with Joel. Mostly stuff we've seen before, but then this:

Do you have a rivalry with RiffTrax, the downloadable commentaries from Michael Nelson and other "MST3K" alumni?
I’m really alert that they’re out there, but they’re doing something that’s so different. They’re in the MP3 business, doing [comments] on newer movies. I did notice that after we started, they started doing older, "MST3K"-type movies. Our thing is about cheesy movies, that’s all we do. They do it all, bad ones, good ones, shorts. I did see that they’ve been running an ad for one that says “It’s MST3K meets Jaws.” That kind of got me. I said “Whaaat? They can’t do that.” What’s up with that? Jaws is Jaws, but that’s not “MST3K.” They’re really talented and really good at what they do, but that made me feel competitive.

LOL, no Joel, it's not MST3K. It's RiffTrax. Try to keep up. And how on earth does this make him feel competitive, unless Cinematic Titanic is planning on doing a good movie? I swear to God, I don't get this guy sometimes.

Oh well, at least Joel acknowledged RiffTrax's existence for once. XD

[crowfan]

The only thing that I can think of is that Joel may have an objection to them using "MST3K" since he and Jim Mallon, or maybe just Jim own the rights to it.

[Queen Shadowrama]

Joel: I did notice that after we started, they started doing older, "MST3K"-type movies.

Uh...what? Okay sure, they've recently revamped some of the Mike commentaries to include the 3 Riffers, but those movies were in the Rifftrax/Legend catalog already. I don't think it's entirely accurate to say they started doing just because Cinematic Titanic was around if the films were already there.

Joel, I adore you, but stop. Rifftrax has never said a bad word about Cinematic Titanic, yet this is the second time where I've seen Joel criticizing Rifftrax in some capacity. I honestly don't get why an ad saying "MST3K Meets Jaws" should be bothering anyone. If I hadn't heard about Rifftrax already and I saw that ad, I would click on it because I like MST3K, and would be interested to know what Rifftrax is all about. Cinematic Titanic also uses the MST3K name to advertise themselves, and Jim - not Joel - owns the rights to the show. Rifftrax has more money to make their ads more prevalent, but it makes little sense to criticize Rifftrax for using their former job as a means to get buyers when CT is doing the same thing.

Ads gotta be short and sweet and get to the point. Maybe saying "MST3K Meets Jaws" isn't the most accurate piece of information in the world, but is anyone on the internet really gonna sit around for an ad like this:

MST3K Meets Jaws. Okay, it's not really MST3K, but we have Michael J. Nelson, Bill Corbett, and Kevin Murphy, who brought you MST3K. Okay, they didn't technically bring you MST3K, Joel Hodgson did, but Mike, Kevin, and Bill used to work there. We also don't have robots. Well, we have a talking toaster, so one could assume he is a robot, but he doesn't talk through the whole movie. We also lack a spaceship, mad scientists, and humorous sketches. We've only got MP3's and you have to provide the DVD yourself. The point is, we're making fun of Jaws, so you should come buy it, along with a bunch of other movies that we've done. You should definitely check us out if you liked that other show that we did ten years ago. Thank you, won't you?

Doesn't really work does it? I'm just getting frustrated with all this. Rifftrax invited Cinematic Titanic over to play way back when, and while I can (begrudgingly) see their reasons for not accepting an invitation, I don't like that whenever Joel is asked about them he's gotta stir the pot like this.

[Creepy Girl]

Ohhh, Joel.

The fact that he's insinuating that Rifftrax is somehow starting to imitate their movie choices is a tad childish. I feel like the two mediums (CT and Rifftrax) are so different that there would only ever be a minimum amount of competition in terms of business. And heck, the majority of fans are supporters of both camps. I'm sure we all have a preference of one over the other, but it's not like we're all going to flock to Rifftrax and abandon CT simply because they've started to riff on a different type of movie.

Can't we all get along, Joel?

[oddstocks]

Wow, I took his comments totally differently. For me, the bit about what kind of movies RT is doing sounded like Joel trying to describe the differences between the two shows, and then backtracking when he remembered RT has also done older movies.

Concerning the MST3K Meets Jaws...I remember there were a few comments about that at Satellite News when that trax first came out. The gist of the argument over there was that it was a misleading statement; made it sound like the old MST3K was back, which wasn't true. I figured that's all he meant, and the competitiveness was purely from a promotional standpoint. Sure, CT also uses MST3K in their promotion, but they say 'from the creator and original cast of...' which makes it easier to understand they're doing a different show. I see RT is now using 'from the stars of MST3K'. Much clearer.

Queen, what was the other thing Joel said to criticize RT? (I don't read every article.) Didn't RT bait CT quite a bit when they first launched?

[Queen Shadowrama]

May 11, 2009 0:03:03 GMT -3 oddstocks said:

Queen, what was the other thing Joel said to criticize RT? (I don't read every article.) Didn't RT bait CT quite a bit when they first launched?

Here's the article I was referencing Oddstocks: blog.newsok.com/bamsblog/2008/10/30/extended-qa-joel-hodgson-of-mst3k/

The important bits:

Q: Is there any chance for something like a “Cinematic Titanic”/RiffTrax crossover? I know fans are always fantasizing about those kind of things.

A: Yeah, I don’t know. I mean, it’s kind of like I feel the best thing right now is to keep ‘em separate. I feel like we kind of have to create our own identity, and so I’m not really very interested in it. And I think too that it’s kind of like people, I think their fantasies of it are probably better than it probably would be. I think it would mean a lot of work and then you know, I’m not sure it would be as satisfying as people think.

But also conceptually, you know, RiffTrax is just an MP3, it’s just audio, and people approached me many times over the years to do that, and I just didn’t feel it was conceptually sound compared to “Mystery Science Theater” or “Cinematic Titanic.” So I don’t think I’d do a RiffTrax, you know what I mean? It doesn’t quite make sense to me.

Is that really necessary? He could have said he didn't want to do one without adding that extra paragraph. He goes on later to say that he's heard one and thinks it's funny, but it feels like backtracking to me. He just spent all this time saying why Rifftrax is an inferior product then at the last minute put an addendum saying that he finds them humorous. It doesn't undo everything else he said for me, and reading that never sat right in my mind.

But to answer your other question, yes - Rifftrax did bait CT when they first started. But it was clear from the get-go that they were just being playful. Sort of a "let's have a fake rivalry and really make things exciting for the fans" thing. In an open letter to CT, Bill invited them to come play with them. For a long time after CT launched, Rifftrax had linked to the CT website in their blogroll. To me, that seems like nothing but a full show of support for the Titans and their project. When it became clear that Joel wasn't interested in playing back, Mike, Kevin and Bill dropped the issue and went back to doing their own thing. The point is that not once has anyone from Rifftrax criticized Cinematic Titanic in any way, and they have even gone out of their way to express their good wishes (I'd say linking the "competitor's website on your own definitely counts as going out of their way). Yet on a few occasions when asked, Joel can't simply express the same feeling. He's gotta say why they're not good enough instead.

Like I said, Joel is amazing and wonderful and just super - except for this one thing. If you can't say anything nice, don't say anything at all.

[oddstocks]

Thanks for the link, Queen. I totally see how you came to your points, yet I don't feel Joel was saying he believes RT is inferior; just that their format doesn't appeal to him. Considering he was a prop comic, and seems to be very visually oriented in general, I can see why sound-only wouldn't be particularly appealing to someone like him.

Consider also that RT has quite a staff and parent company, and CT is apparently doing most everything themselves. From just a time standpoint, Joel's interest in focusing on CT is understandable as well.

You're right though; he could've put it better.

[Robyn]

I'm just cranky because I just know this is going to prompt even more bitching between fans, particularly on Satellite News. I'm starting to think Joel just says stuff like that when he gets bored because he gets a kicks out of watching the fans freak out. 8P

[Big Stoopid]

I gotta' interject . . . If I'd created something that truly flowered as a creative & innovative success that won praise & dedication from fans and critics alike, and had to give up my place at the helm, only to watch its growth continue for another 15 years ??
. . .. I might be a tad touchy about it too !
Thin-skinned even !

[Queen Shadowrama]

May 11, 2009 21:10:05 GMT -3 Big Stoopid said:

I gotta' interject . . . If I'd created something that truly flowered as a creative & innovative success that won praise & dedication from fans and critics alike, and had to give up my place at the helm, only to watch its growth continue for another 15 years ??
. . .. I might be a tad touchy about it too !
Thin-skinned even !

Very true, but it's not Mike's fault that Joel left. Joel may have felt that he needed to leave the show even though he didn't want to, but the fact is, he left. Not to mention he gave up his rights to the show, so as much as he may be kicking himself over that choice now, one could argue that he did that to himself, and therefore has no place getting all protective about it. Not saying I agree with that - there's no way you can avoid having an emotional connection with something you created, but part of me wants to say, "you made this bed, now sleep in it".

But whether it turns out to be good or bad, Mike directly benefited from Joel's departure, and he helped make the show what it was for it's last five years. Joel may have birthed it an nurtured it for it's first five years, but Mike (along with the others) carried on that role after Joel was gone. Doesn't that count for something? That alone makes me think that Mike has just as much "ownership" of MST3K as Joel does, at least in terms of using MST3K to further his career.

Welcome back, by the way! ;D